Comments on: Should Bishops Remain as Patrons of Our Schools?

By: Mairéad

Mairéad — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 20:36:46 +0000

Is it normal procedure that criteria for entry to a Primary school changes every year ?
No.

Would that criteria be directed by Board of Management, Principle or Dept of ED ?
Board of Management, of which the Principal is a member.
In recent years, the DES have taken a particular interest in enrollment forms and enrollment policies.
This is because there have been appeals to children being refused entry to a school.
It is very dodgy ground legally.
Unless a school is "full" they cannot really refuse admittance to any child.
"Full" means x children divided by the number of class teachers in the school, depending on the pupil-teacher ratio ladi down by the Minister of Ed. Currently it is 29 per teacher, so if the school has 10 "class" teachers (i.e. teaching a class, not for example the learning-support teacher) then the school is "full" at 291 pupils.

It has been suggested that my daughter just lie about where she live’s, Thats an extraordinairy way round red tape in my opinion.
That would get the school "off the hook", BUT it would also get the child on the bus.
It might be worth it to get him on the bus? Only you can decide.

Just to cl;arify for you ” entry criteria ” could this mean on which month of the year a child has their 4th birthday ?
It might, but might not be upheld, and unless the school is "full" would probably fail. (Can never be certain 100%).

Becoming seriously confused about all of this.
No wonder!

By: norma

norma — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:24:45 +0000

Mairead; I will put my question to you here, Is it normal procedure that criteria for entry to a Primary school changes every year ?
Would that criteria be directed by Board of Management, Principle or Dept of ED ?
It has been suggested that my daughter just lie about where she live's, Thats an extraordinairy way round red tape in my opinion.
Just to cl;arify for you " entry criteria " could this mean on which month of the year a child has their 4th birthday ?
Becoming seriously confused about all of this.
Elizabeth; If you are still reading this, Please don't worry too much, You might find that it is necessary to undo a lot of what a child has to contend with once the leave the home environment for school, Its their first step into the "world" and influences you might reject for your child, It's a step by step process and influences come from many sources, some good some bad.
I found some people along the way easy to communicate with and very co-operative, some not so much but once you get a handle on what you want from the system it gets easier, Another task in weaving your way through, Don't worry though.
Very much appreciate your insight.

By: Mairéad

Mairéad — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 20:06:34 +0000

Good blueprints, Paul. Thank you. It will take a lot of people to change our country.

It is very difficult, Elizabeth. I decided to keep my children's options open, and went with the status quo.
As a teacher, I really had no choice if I wanted to keep my job, or get another job in another school…

By: Elizabeth

Elizabeth — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 10:59:15 +0000

Norma's experience seriously worries me. It was one of my main concerns when I filled in the form to "opt out" of catholicism. My parents, siblings and friends said "remember, your child will not be able to go to a catholic school". We don't have children as yet, but are planning on starting a family soon. I have opted out of catholicism because I simply could not remain a part of a church just because it would mean my choice in schools for my future children would be limited. Its an absolute disgrace that still in Ireland the vast majority of schools are run by religious organisations…I mean its totally laughable given the outcome of the murphy and ryan reports…the rest of the world must be laughing their heads off at us…and I don't actually blame them. The area we live in is the area we will live in for at least the next 5 years given the current economic climate! There is a school across the road but its a convent run school, the nearest non-denominational primary school is a good bit away and doesn't have a very good record, its in quite a rough area…the nearest "educate together" school is in citywest and should be open soon, however its still a good bit away…I can only hope that by the time we start a family and have school-age children that the prospects have changed for us in our area. Still, its such an awful shame that we do not have access to good schools for our children just because they are not catholic. I REFUSE to have any child of mine baptised into a church and organisation I don't believe in, just so they can attend a decent school.

By: Paul

Paul — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 00:09:41 +0000

Its a difficult one. For me its a question of getting the right people in the right positions for the right reasons – the merit principle -everything else follows. To start along that path you probably need a few like minded people – decent politician, decent lawyer, decent union rep and decent journalist – start educating us about what really goes on and challenging the patronage nonsense and beating the drum for the merit principle. There is a patriotic message in there somewhere – if we want the country back on its feet (morally, socially, economically) we need the right people in the right positions doing the right things for the right reasons. There should be much to gain for the politician / lawyer / journalist beyond simply doing the right thing. The union people must have someone in their ranks willing to get involved. The starting point could be anywhere – the level could be any level – the politician can be anyone whose voice will be heard in the political arena, the lawyer anyone with an interest in employment law, and the journalist anyone with access to a reasonable audience. There are plenty of models to learn from – other countries have had to take steps to clean up the processes by which people are appointed to postions of authority. Dont know if this is of any use to you but a few like minded people with a bit of thought can achieve a lot. Let the anger develop into cool headed strategy. You seem pretty cool headed to me.

By: Mairéad

Mairéad — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 18:07:13 +0000

It is.
It has to change.
Any suggestions as to how we can change it?

By: Paul

Paul — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 17:55:27 +0000

Hi M.
Have some involvement with Boards (not schools Boards), appointments processes and training.
From my position of ignorance with regard to Christianity and the Church I must admit to being absolutely staggered, astonished, flabbergasted and shocked that a religious organisation would be involved in such things. Insidious doesnt begin to describe the picture I am starting to see. Scary scary stuff!

By: Mairéad

Mairéad — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 17:11:56 +0000

Hi Paul,
"I dont get how going to Priest school for a few years and doing some sort of apprenticeship equips anyone to be my spritual guide – sorry just dont get it".

Whatever about being a spiritual guide, I can vouch that it does not equip priests or Bishops or Popes to run schools or hospitals.
Each Diocese has an Education Secretary for example – a priest. These men have huge powers, claim many years of experience in interviewing teachers, training Boards of Managements and the like – but know very, very little about teaching, teachers or education, whatever they claim!

(Yes, I did say "training" Boards of Management. The Catholic church trains members of the Board of Management how to behave on the Board. Confidentiality is a big thing with them, which is fine, but it is used to keep everyone in the dark).

By: Paul

Paul — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:02:16 +0000

I wasnt brought up a Christian. I know little about Christianity. A man in a funny hat carrying a crooked stick is a man in a funny hat carrying a crooked stick. I dont want men in funny hats and carrying crooked sticks to have anything to do with my healthcare, social care, education……
I dont get how going to Priest school for a few years and doing some sort of apprenticeship equips anyone to be my spritual guide – sorry just dont get it.

By: Scotlyn

Scotlyn — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:28:48 +0000

PS – Stephen, I second Norma, Audrey and Mairead. You're brave to speak out, and thank you.