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	<title>Comments on: New Self Defence Law</title>
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		<title>By: Raychard</title>
		<link>http://bocktherobber.com/2009/12/new-self-defence-law/comment-page-1/#comment-125582</link>
		<dc:creator>Raychard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Sep 2011 17:35:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bocktherobber.com/?p=11504#comment-125582</guid>
		<description>Hi, I&#039;m sorry for the two posts above about the same item. I tried to delete the first one Number 31 and posted 32. But they both came up together. 
Thanks for your understanding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, I&#039;m sorry for the two posts above about the same item. I tried to delete the first one Number 31 and posted 32. But they both came up together.<br />
Thanks for your understanding.</p>
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		<title>By: Raychard</title>
		<link>http://bocktherobber.com/2009/12/new-self-defence-law/comment-page-1/#comment-125530</link>
		<dc:creator>Raychard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Sep 2011 11:07:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bocktherobber.com/?p=11504#comment-125530</guid>
		<description>Already we can see form all the comments above about this subject how complex and leading and misleading a “written” law can be. If we have so many arguments and views how will a jury fair? It’s then all down to the “powers that be” accepting a certain wording that a group of then agree on that will be accepted by the &quot;party&quot; majority. And an opposition too. And will it get votes in the next election.
 So when an intruder breaks into yer gaf at 4AM you don’t rush to your file and look up the relevant “rules and regs” of the situation to see what you can or cannot do. You react! ... maybe you shit yer pants, cower under the bedclothes, scream with terror, jump up and search frantically for yer hurley (I prefer the baseball bat”), stay stum and hope they go away.
The biggest problem here is if you beat the intruder how it all looks in a few years time to a judge or jury who really couldn’t care less about what happened to you years ago. And the intruder is all dressed up in a nice suit and tie with a haircut and doesn’t he look fine and shur he only came in the wrong door because etc etc etc…. and this mad bastard (you) attacked him with a hurley with metal tape around the boss and gave the poor guy a few weeks in hospital…. etc.
Go to any court and listen and see what goes on and how the situations are treated months and maybe years later. The courtroom is nothing like that situation that happened in your home at 4AM with your children and your loved ones and your possessions - and you rudely awakened and confronted with a spaced-out drug addict? mean menacing thief? knife-wielding maniac?. Or all three!!!
Maybe the movie makers should be brought in to film a re-enactment of your story to show the court how it happened and give them the “feel” of what you faced on that night ???</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Already we can see form all the comments above about this subject how complex and leading and misleading a “written” law can be. If we have so many arguments and views how will a jury fair? It’s then all down to the “powers that be” accepting a certain wording that a group of then agree on that will be accepted by the &#034;party&#034; majority. And an opposition too. And will it get votes in the next election.<br />
 So when an intruder breaks into yer gaf at 4AM you don’t rush to your file and look up the relevant “rules and regs” of the situation to see what you can or cannot do. You react! &#8230; maybe you shit yer pants, cower under the bedclothes, scream with terror, jump up and search frantically for yer hurley (I prefer the baseball bat”), stay stum and hope they go away.<br />
The biggest problem here is if you beat the intruder how it all looks in a few years time to a judge or jury who really couldn’t care less about what happened to you years ago. And the intruder is all dressed up in a nice suit and tie with a haircut and doesn’t he look fine and shur he only came in the wrong door because etc etc etc…. and this mad bastard (you) attacked him with a hurley with metal tape around the boss and gave the poor guy a few weeks in hospital…. etc.<br />
Go to any court and listen and see what goes on and how the situations are treated months and maybe years later. The courtroom is nothing like that situation that happened in your home at 4AM with your children and your loved ones and your possessions &#8211; and you rudely awakened and confronted with a spaced-out drug addict? mean menacing thief? knife-wielding maniac?. Or all three!!!<br />
Maybe the movie makers should be brought in to film a re-enactment of your story to show the court how it happened and give them the “feel” of what you faced on that night ???</p>
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		<title>By: Raychard</title>
		<link>http://bocktherobber.com/2009/12/new-self-defence-law/comment-page-1/#comment-125529</link>
		<dc:creator>Raychard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Sep 2011 10:50:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bocktherobber.com/?p=11504#comment-125529</guid>
		<description>Already we can see form all the comments above about this subject how complex and leading and misleading a &quot;written&quot; law can be. It&#039;s then all down to the &quot;powers that be&quot; accepting a certain wording that a group of then agre on. So when an intruder breaks into yer gaf at 4AM you don&#039;t rush to your file and look up the relevant &quot;rules and regs&quot; of the situation to see what you can or cannot do.  You react! ... is some way. maybe you shit yer pants, cower under the bedclothes, jump up and search frantically for yer hurley (I prefer the baseball bat&quot;), stay stum and hope they go away. 
The biggest problem here is if you beat the intruder how it all looks in a few years time to a judge or jury who really couldn&#039;t care less about what happened to you years ago. And the intruder is all dressed up in a nice suit and tie with a haircut and doesn&#039;t he look fine and shur he only came in the wrong door because etc etc etc.... and this mad bastard (you) attacked him with a hurley with metal tape around the boss and gave the poor guy a few weeks in hospital.... Go to any court and listen and see what goes on and how the situations are treated months and maybe years later.  The courtroom is nothing like that situation that happened in your home at 4AM with your children and your loved ones and your possessions confrunted with a drug addict? thief? maniac?. Maybe the movie makers should be brought in to film a re-enactment of your story to show the court and give them the &quot;feel&quot; of what you faced on that night ???</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Already we can see form all the comments above about this subject how complex and leading and misleading a &#034;written&#034; law can be. It&#039;s then all down to the &#034;powers that be&#034; accepting a certain wording that a group of then agre on. So when an intruder breaks into yer gaf at 4AM you don&#039;t rush to your file and look up the relevant &#034;rules and regs&#034; of the situation to see what you can or cannot do.  You react! &#8230; is some way. maybe you shit yer pants, cower under the bedclothes, jump up and search frantically for yer hurley (I prefer the baseball bat&#034;), stay stum and hope they go away.<br />
The biggest problem here is if you beat the intruder how it all looks in a few years time to a judge or jury who really couldn&#039;t care less about what happened to you years ago. And the intruder is all dressed up in a nice suit and tie with a haircut and doesn&#039;t he look fine and shur he only came in the wrong door because etc etc etc&#8230;. and this mad bastard (you) attacked him with a hurley with metal tape around the boss and gave the poor guy a few weeks in hospital&#8230;. Go to any court and listen and see what goes on and how the situations are treated months and maybe years later.  The courtroom is nothing like that situation that happened in your home at 4AM with your children and your loved ones and your possessions confrunted with a drug addict? thief? maniac?. Maybe the movie makers should be brought in to film a re-enactment of your story to show the court and give them the &#034;feel&#034; of what you faced on that night ???</p>
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		<title>By: William</title>
		<link>http://bocktherobber.com/2009/12/new-self-defence-law/comment-page-1/#comment-87734</link>
		<dc:creator>William</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jan 2010 14:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bocktherobber.com/?p=11504#comment-87734</guid>
		<description>scotlyn..thats a great post and spot on.Love the bit about taking away all our rights to protect us from criminals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>scotlyn..thats a great post and spot on.Love the bit about taking away all our rights to protect us from criminals.</p>
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		<title>By: Scotlyn</title>
		<link>http://bocktherobber.com/2009/12/new-self-defence-law/comment-page-1/#comment-87697</link>
		<dc:creator>Scotlyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jan 2010 13:05:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bocktherobber.com/?p=11504#comment-87697</guid>
		<description>Sorry, Bock - I hadn&#039;t seen your reply to mine, so sorry if this is a late one. 

I absolutely agree with you that when known criminals walk around unprosecuted and able to prey on people with seeming impunity, it is a travesty.   And we need to figure it out and put a stop to it! 

But it simply doesn&#039;t follow that such people have &quot;more&quot; rights than anyone else, or that the solution lies in taking away rights, that belong to us all, away from us.   Why should I allow the police more powers to batter down my door, or listen to my phone conversations, or retain my email/google records, in order to make me  &quot;safer&quot; from criminals? 
a) it doesn&#039;t work - I end up with less rights, the government ends up with more power (and power, as we know, corrupts and leads to more potential for predation and abuse), and the criminals &lt;b&gt;still get off.&lt;/b&gt;
b) the criminals are not actually protected from prosecution by their &quot;rights&quot; &lt;b&gt;but by their success in instilling fear and loyalty. &lt;/b&gt;  The most persistent problem that recurs in trying to prosecute these cases is the &quot;never saw nuffin&quot; phenomenon - ie &quot;bought&quot; or frightened witnesses.  
c) people that persist in arguing that criminals are too highly &quot;protected&quot; by their human rights (or that enemy combatants are too highly &quot;protected&quot; by their human rights), so persist in order to &lt;b&gt;win their campaign to remove those rights from me and you&lt;/b&gt;.  Don&#039;t be fooled - this arguments is usually fought in an emotional way - and when people try to manipulate your emotions it is because they really don&#039;t want you using your critical faculties.

If we seriously want to put an end to the seeming impunity of such criminals as you describe, we need to provide a lot more protection for witnesses (and here I don&#039;t just mean the government - I mean people need to feel that if they stand up in court and testify, we&#039;re all going to be out there applauding them, and watching their backs!).  We also need to work on ways to isolate the criminals from the support of their communities.  People who are not trapped by poverty are far less vulnerable to being &quot;bought&quot; by them, people who are certain of being strongly protected, and of winning great social approval and gratitude,  for whistle-blowing (and this also applies in those other well-known criminal dens - such as banks, churches, political parties, etc) are less likely to be frightened out of their wits for doing so.  Public shame and public approval and support (properly applied) are weapons we have forgotten how to wield effectively.

Nevertheless, we also need to continue to protect our human rights, now more than ever, when both governments and private persons command so much useful technology for surveillance - and this is so even if criminals make use of such rights, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, Bock &#8211; I hadn&#039;t seen your reply to mine, so sorry if this is a late one. </p>
<p>I absolutely agree with you that when known criminals walk around unprosecuted and able to prey on people with seeming impunity, it is a travesty.   And we need to figure it out and put a stop to it! </p>
<p>But it simply doesn&#039;t follow that such people have &#034;more&#034; rights than anyone else, or that the solution lies in taking away rights, that belong to us all, away from us.   Why should I allow the police more powers to batter down my door, or listen to my phone conversations, or retain my email/google records, in order to make me  &#034;safer&#034; from criminals?<br />
a) it doesn&#039;t work &#8211; I end up with less rights, the government ends up with more power (and power, as we know, corrupts and leads to more potential for predation and abuse), and the criminals <b>still get off.</b><br />
b) the criminals are not actually protected from prosecution by their &#034;rights&#034; <b>but by their success in instilling fear and loyalty. </b>  The most persistent problem that recurs in trying to prosecute these cases is the &#034;never saw nuffin&#034; phenomenon &#8211; ie &#034;bought&#034; or frightened witnesses.<br />
c) people that persist in arguing that criminals are too highly &#034;protected&#034; by their human rights (or that enemy combatants are too highly &#034;protected&#034; by their human rights), so persist in order to <b>win their campaign to remove those rights from me and you</b>.  Don&#039;t be fooled &#8211; this arguments is usually fought in an emotional way &#8211; and when people try to manipulate your emotions it is because they really don&#039;t want you using your critical faculties.</p>
<p>If we seriously want to put an end to the seeming impunity of such criminals as you describe, we need to provide a lot more protection for witnesses (and here I don&#039;t just mean the government &#8211; I mean people need to feel that if they stand up in court and testify, we&#039;re all going to be out there applauding them, and watching their backs!).  We also need to work on ways to isolate the criminals from the support of their communities.  People who are not trapped by poverty are far less vulnerable to being &#034;bought&#034; by them, people who are certain of being strongly protected, and of winning great social approval and gratitude,  for whistle-blowing (and this also applies in those other well-known criminal dens &#8211; such as banks, churches, political parties, etc) are less likely to be frightened out of their wits for doing so.  Public shame and public approval and support (properly applied) are weapons we have forgotten how to wield effectively.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, we also need to continue to protect our human rights, now more than ever, when both governments and private persons command so much useful technology for surveillance &#8211; and this is so even if criminals make use of such rights, too.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Dennehy</title>
		<link>http://bocktherobber.com/2009/12/new-self-defence-law/comment-page-1/#comment-87493</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Dennehy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 17:46:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bocktherobber.com/?p=11504#comment-87493</guid>
		<description>Thanks for that Bock. Billy&#039;s incorrect on most of his factual points in there though. Nally didn&#039;t know Ward and testified to that in his trial. So either Billy&#039;s wrong, and Ward wasn&#039;t often calling to the door; or Nally was lying on the stand. Neither really paints him in a good light.

And yes, I&#039;ve been burgled, twice from my home and twice from my car.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for that Bock. Billy&#039;s incorrect on most of his factual points in there though. Nally didn&#039;t know Ward and testified to that in his trial. So either Billy&#039;s wrong, and Ward wasn&#039;t often calling to the door; or Nally was lying on the stand. Neither really paints him in a good light.</p>
<p>And yes, I&#039;ve been burgled, twice from my home and twice from my car.</p>
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		<title>By: Billy The Kid</title>
		<link>http://bocktherobber.com/2009/12/new-self-defence-law/comment-page-1/#comment-87462</link>
		<dc:creator>Billy The Kid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 12:55:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bocktherobber.com/?p=11504#comment-87462</guid>
		<description>[Mod Edit.

Despite containing a number of valid points, this comment has been deleted because of personal abuse directed towards another commenter.]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[Mod Edit.</p>
<p>Despite containing a number of valid points, this comment has been deleted because of personal abuse directed towards another commenter.]</p>
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		<title>By: Bock</title>
		<link>http://bocktherobber.com/2009/12/new-self-defence-law/comment-page-1/#comment-86765</link>
		<dc:creator>Bock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 23:37:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bocktherobber.com/?p=11504#comment-86765</guid>
		<description>Scotlyn -- I&#039;m afraid there is such a thing as criminals&#039; rights. There are people in this town and elsewhere who are habitual, committed criminals, and who  are protected very well indeed by their rights.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scotlyn &#8212; I&#039;m afraid there is such a thing as criminals&#039; rights. There are people in this town and elsewhere who are habitual, committed criminals, and who  are protected very well indeed by their rights.</p>
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		<title>By: Scotlyn</title>
		<link>http://bocktherobber.com/2009/12/new-self-defence-law/comment-page-1/#comment-86739</link>
		<dc:creator>Scotlyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 19:10:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bocktherobber.com/?p=11504#comment-86739</guid>
		<description>Bock - late back to the table, but &lt;blockquote&gt;Scotlyn — I think this is about householders, not police, and in any case we already have that sort of thing happening. I remember years ago, a man standing at a bus stop in Dublin was riddled with Uzi-fire by police who thought he was a bank robber.&lt;/blockquote&gt;  That case, was one where a householder felt threatened by someone who was genuinely not attempting to threaten them, and very possibly the householder would have shot him themselves if they had owned a gun, instead of having to call the police. Both householders and police can make mistakes.

Mark is very good at clarifying Irish law very expertly, and I&#039;m certainly no expert.  But I have watched the PR spinners invent the notion of &quot;criminal&#039;s rights&quot; over the past 2-3 decades, starting in the US, where serious efforts have been going on for years to undermine the wonderful US Constitution.  The &quot;talking point&quot; that right wing commentators are supposed to harp on about until it sinks into everyone&#039;s unconscious, and you&#039;ve forgotten why you ever thought there was something wrong with it,  is that &quot;criminals&quot; have rights and &quot;victims&quot; don&#039;t.   The aim of the game is to try to make ordinary people willing to give up the rights that belong to us all, in order to prevent them being used by criminals.  The fact that criminals happen to make use of your right or my right to due process of law, to be assumed to be innocent until guilt is proven, to remain silent when questioned, etc, doesn&#039;t make these &quot;criminal&#039;s rights.&quot;  

As Mark explains, our law is fine.  There is no history of householders being prosecuted for defending themselves in Ireland.  Therefore there is another agenda here.  And that agenda is more than likely going to impact on us all, not just on criminals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bock &#8211; late back to the table, but<br />
<blockquote>Scotlyn — I think this is about householders, not police, and in any case we already have that sort of thing happening. I remember years ago, a man standing at a bus stop in Dublin was riddled with Uzi-fire by police who thought he was a bank robber.</p></blockquote>
<p>  That case, was one where a householder felt threatened by someone who was genuinely not attempting to threaten them, and very possibly the householder would have shot him themselves if they had owned a gun, instead of having to call the police. Both householders and police can make mistakes.</p>
<p>Mark is very good at clarifying Irish law very expertly, and I&#039;m certainly no expert.  But I have watched the PR spinners invent the notion of &#034;criminal&#039;s rights&#034; over the past 2-3 decades, starting in the US, where serious efforts have been going on for years to undermine the wonderful US Constitution.  The &#034;talking point&#034; that right wing commentators are supposed to harp on about until it sinks into everyone&#039;s unconscious, and you&#039;ve forgotten why you ever thought there was something wrong with it,  is that &#034;criminals&#034; have rights and &#034;victims&#034; don&#039;t.   The aim of the game is to try to make ordinary people willing to give up the rights that belong to us all, in order to prevent them being used by criminals.  The fact that criminals happen to make use of your right or my right to due process of law, to be assumed to be innocent until guilt is proven, to remain silent when questioned, etc, doesn&#039;t make these &#034;criminal&#039;s rights.&#034;  </p>
<p>As Mark explains, our law is fine.  There is no history of householders being prosecuted for defending themselves in Ireland.  Therefore there is another agenda here.  And that agenda is more than likely going to impact on us all, not just on criminals.</p>
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		<title>By: unstranger</title>
		<link>http://bocktherobber.com/2009/12/new-self-defence-law/comment-page-1/#comment-86648</link>
		<dc:creator>unstranger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 20:53:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bocktherobber.com/?p=11504#comment-86648</guid>
		<description>Brilliant - but wait until FF get their idiot hands on the final wording of the legislation. Remember Fine Gael tried to get a great version passed a few years ago but FF stopped it. This incarnation may well be a toothless piece of crap legislation. I am pessimistic given their track record.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brilliant &#8211; but wait until FF get their idiot hands on the final wording of the legislation. Remember Fine Gael tried to get a great version passed a few years ago but FF stopped it. This incarnation may well be a toothless piece of crap legislation. I am pessimistic given their track record.</p>
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