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	<title>Comments on: Mental Reservation</title>
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		<title>By: Bock</title>
		<link>http://bocktherobber.com/2009/11/mental-reservation/comment-page-1/#comment-86237</link>
		<dc:creator>Bock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:18:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bocktherobber.com/?p=11185#comment-86237</guid>
		<description>By all means.  I&#039;ll try to move these comments across.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By all means.  I&#039;ll try to move these comments across.</p>
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		<title>By: Bock</title>
		<link>http://bocktherobber.com/2009/11/mental-reservation/comment-page-1/#comment-86236</link>
		<dc:creator>Bock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:09:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bocktherobber.com/?p=11185#comment-86236</guid>
		<description>Frantheman -- You might have overlooked my previous comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frantheman &#8212; You might have overlooked my previous comment.</p>
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		<title>By: frantheman</title>
		<link>http://bocktherobber.com/2009/11/mental-reservation/comment-page-1/#comment-86235</link>
		<dc:creator>frantheman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:07:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bocktherobber.com/?p=11185#comment-86235</guid>
		<description>Audrey: &quot;Before the earth was proven to be round and everyone accepted it to be flat, if there was someone that believed it to be round would he be seen as illogical?&quot; It would depend on the reasons that person gave for believing that the earth was round. Historically in fact, back to the ancient Greeks, a large number of educated thinkers, from Pythagoras onwards, following basic scientific methods, argued that the earth was round:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round_earth

But let&#039;s get back to logic. In terms of formal logic I grant you a point in that it is problematical to logically argue to proof of a negative. A statement, for example, &quot;there are no black swans&quot;, is always subject to refutation on the discovery that, in fact, a black swan exists somewhere. Nonetheless, regarding the existence of God, the logic works in another direction, in that there are no logical arguments/proofs for the existence of a God which are not open to serious challenge on the basis of rational, logical thinking. Even Thomas Aquinas was aware of this when he carefully called his five classical arguments for the existence of God &quot;ways&quot; and not &quot;proofs.&quot;

 Arguments for the existence of God generally fall down, from the logical point of view, on the basis of internal self-reference with regard to their own definition of terms; they are nothing more than rational legerdemain. The best example of this is the Anselmian argument: God is a being, greater than which nothing can be thought to exist - but something which exists is obviously greater than something which does not exist - therefore God exists. Very clever, except that it&#039;s a completely closed loop. It&#039;s like saying 1=1.

This is why the Abrahamic religions are all based on a revelation of some sort - and, particularly in the case of Christianity and Islam, posit a &quot;faith&quot; response on the part of those to whom &quot;God&quot; reveals his/her existence/nature. The question is whether this faith is reasonable. Atheists, or agnostics with atheistic tendencies (which is how I would define myself, given the problem with logical proofs of a negative, which I outlined above) argue that none of the arguments concerning the reasonableness of the various versions of faith proffered by believers are particularly convincing.

Let&#039;s be quite clear about this; an atheist does not have to prove anything - the burden of proof is on the theist. And, contrary to what many think, doubt has a long and illustrious pedigree. If you are really interested in going into this issue seriously, you could do a lot worse than begin with &quot;Doubt - A History,&quot; by Jennifer Michael Hecht (New York, 2004, ISBN 978-0-06-009795-0). It&#039;s an immensely readable, balanced, erudite work, just the kind of present to ask Santy for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Audrey: &#034;Before the earth was proven to be round and everyone accepted it to be flat, if there was someone that believed it to be round would he be seen as illogical?&#034; It would depend on the reasons that person gave for believing that the earth was round. Historically in fact, back to the ancient Greeks, a large number of educated thinkers, from Pythagoras onwards, following basic scientific methods, argued that the earth was round:<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round_earth" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round_earth</a></p>
<p>But let&#039;s get back to logic. In terms of formal logic I grant you a point in that it is problematical to logically argue to proof of a negative. A statement, for example, &#034;there are no black swans&#034;, is always subject to refutation on the discovery that, in fact, a black swan exists somewhere. Nonetheless, regarding the existence of God, the logic works in another direction, in that there are no logical arguments/proofs for the existence of a God which are not open to serious challenge on the basis of rational, logical thinking. Even Thomas Aquinas was aware of this when he carefully called his five classical arguments for the existence of God &#034;ways&#034; and not &#034;proofs.&#034;</p>
<p> Arguments for the existence of God generally fall down, from the logical point of view, on the basis of internal self-reference with regard to their own definition of terms; they are nothing more than rational legerdemain. The best example of this is the Anselmian argument: God is a being, greater than which nothing can be thought to exist &#8211; but something which exists is obviously greater than something which does not exist &#8211; therefore God exists. Very clever, except that it&#039;s a completely closed loop. It&#039;s like saying 1=1.</p>
<p>This is why the Abrahamic religions are all based on a revelation of some sort &#8211; and, particularly in the case of Christianity and Islam, posit a &#034;faith&#034; response on the part of those to whom &#034;God&#034; reveals his/her existence/nature. The question is whether this faith is reasonable. Atheists, or agnostics with atheistic tendencies (which is how I would define myself, given the problem with logical proofs of a negative, which I outlined above) argue that none of the arguments concerning the reasonableness of the various versions of faith proffered by believers are particularly convincing.</p>
<p>Let&#039;s be quite clear about this; an atheist does not have to prove anything &#8211; the burden of proof is on the theist. And, contrary to what many think, doubt has a long and illustrious pedigree. If you are really interested in going into this issue seriously, you could do a lot worse than begin with &#034;Doubt &#8211; A History,&#034; by Jennifer Michael Hecht (New York, 2004, ISBN 978-0-06-009795-0). It&#039;s an immensely readable, balanced, erudite work, just the kind of present to ask Santy for.</p>
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		<title>By: Bock</title>
		<link>http://bocktherobber.com/2009/11/mental-reservation/comment-page-1/#comment-86234</link>
		<dc:creator>Bock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 20:50:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bocktherobber.com/?p=11185#comment-86234</guid>
		<description>People -- Someone please tell me what all this has to do with mental reservation, which is the topic of the post?  There&#039;s a very interesting thread called Scientific Method, which is probably a more suitable home for this discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People &#8212; Someone please tell me what all this has to do with mental reservation, which is the topic of the post?  There&#039;s a very interesting thread called Scientific Method, which is probably a more suitable home for this discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: Cynical Joe</title>
		<link>http://bocktherobber.com/2009/11/mental-reservation/comment-page-1/#comment-86233</link>
		<dc:creator>Cynical Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 20:45:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bocktherobber.com/?p=11185#comment-86233</guid>
		<description>Audrey, we seem to agree that there are things that we do not understand. Our point of departure is when you then jump the conclusion that you must have faith or belief in some theory to explain these things.  A perfectly good alternative is to say that the answer is &#039;unknowable&#039; - that there cannot be an answer - and stop there. In an ironic way you are being too logical - striving to find an explanation that is almost good enough to explain something that is not knowable.

Imagine for a second that you are a cockroach. You will see (hopefully) that it is not possible for you to imagine what this is truly like. You can imagine perhaps what it is like for Audrey to feel like a cockroach, but you can never know what the actual experience of being a cockroach is like.  It is unknowable. Now ask yourself this - why can the cockroach not play a Mozart concerto on a grand piano? Because a cockroach cannot know what this experience is like.  In a similar way, mere humans cannot know the origins and scope of the universe and understand the paradox of consciousness. We are but a small tangent on an evolutionary tree, on one small planet, in one small galaxy.  We may think we are special, but we are not. 

It is humbling but very liberating to acknowledge that we cannot know some things and that we do not need absurd theories to explain the unknowable.  This faith that you speak of is just a yearning for understanding, when no understanding is possible. I wish more people could experience the intellectual freedom that this simple conclusion affords.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Audrey, we seem to agree that there are things that we do not understand. Our point of departure is when you then jump the conclusion that you must have faith or belief in some theory to explain these things.  A perfectly good alternative is to say that the answer is &#039;unknowable&#039; &#8211; that there cannot be an answer &#8211; and stop there. In an ironic way you are being too logical &#8211; striving to find an explanation that is almost good enough to explain something that is not knowable.</p>
<p>Imagine for a second that you are a cockroach. You will see (hopefully) that it is not possible for you to imagine what this is truly like. You can imagine perhaps what it is like for Audrey to feel like a cockroach, but you can never know what the actual experience of being a cockroach is like.  It is unknowable. Now ask yourself this &#8211; why can the cockroach not play a Mozart concerto on a grand piano? Because a cockroach cannot know what this experience is like.  In a similar way, mere humans cannot know the origins and scope of the universe and understand the paradox of consciousness. We are but a small tangent on an evolutionary tree, on one small planet, in one small galaxy.  We may think we are special, but we are not. </p>
<p>It is humbling but very liberating to acknowledge that we cannot know some things and that we do not need absurd theories to explain the unknowable.  This faith that you speak of is just a yearning for understanding, when no understanding is possible. I wish more people could experience the intellectual freedom that this simple conclusion affords.</p>
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		<title>By: Audrey</title>
		<link>http://bocktherobber.com/2009/11/mental-reservation/comment-page-1/#comment-86231</link>
		<dc:creator>Audrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 20:16:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bocktherobber.com/?p=11185#comment-86231</guid>
		<description>Frantheman - &#039;An atheist is not someone who believes there is no God, he/she is someone who does not believe that there is a God.&#039;   That&#039;s great logic trying to make your point.  Even with your explanation of atheism I stand by what I said - I think it&#039;s takes as much faith to accept that because there are no valid arguments for a god you choose to not believe there is &#039;A&#039; god.  If it&#039;s unproven you are choosing to have a belief that there is a god or there is no such thing, or no valid arguments for believing in a god, either way it&#039;s not illogical. 
Your statement saying if something&#039;s not proven its formally seen as illogical, seems very illogical to me. Before the earth was proven to be round and everyone accepted it to be flat, if there was someone that believed it to be round would he be seen as illogical?. What if it was never proven that the earth was round, what if we never got advanced enough to know. I&#039;m not asserting anything using that fact, I&#039;m using it as an example of your theory on what&#039;s illogical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frantheman &#8211; &#039;An atheist is not someone who believes there is no God, he/she is someone who does not believe that there is a God.&#039;   That&#039;s great logic trying to make your point.  Even with your explanation of atheism I stand by what I said &#8211; I think it&#039;s takes as much faith to accept that because there are no valid arguments for a god you choose to not believe there is &#039;A&#039; god.  If it&#039;s unproven you are choosing to have a belief that there is a god or there is no such thing, or no valid arguments for believing in a god, either way it&#039;s not illogical.<br />
Your statement saying if something&#039;s not proven its formally seen as illogical, seems very illogical to me. Before the earth was proven to be round and everyone accepted it to be flat, if there was someone that believed it to be round would he be seen as illogical?. What if it was never proven that the earth was round, what if we never got advanced enough to know. I&#039;m not asserting anything using that fact, I&#039;m using it as an example of your theory on what&#039;s illogical.</p>
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		<title>By: Bock</title>
		<link>http://bocktherobber.com/2009/11/mental-reservation/comment-page-1/#comment-86228</link>
		<dc:creator>Bock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:58:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bocktherobber.com/?p=11185#comment-86228</guid>
		<description>Having faith in something unproven is the complete opposite of logic.  It&#039;s the abandonment of critical thinking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having faith in something unproven is the complete opposite of logic.  It&#039;s the abandonment of critical thinking.</p>
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		<title>By: frantheman</title>
		<link>http://bocktherobber.com/2009/11/mental-reservation/comment-page-1/#comment-86227</link>
		<dc:creator>frantheman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:40:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bocktherobber.com/?p=11185#comment-86227</guid>
		<description>Audrey, your logic in this discussion is all over the place. An atheist is not someone who believes there is no God, he/she is someone who does not believe that there is a God. This is an important distinction, the result of which is the affirmation that an atheist does not have faith in a belief, rather he/she does not see any valid arguments for believing in a God, be that a triune Judaeo-Hellenistic concept, a flying spaghetti monster (whose believers call themselves Pastafarians), or a giant tea-cup revolving around Saturn.

Having faith in something that&#039;s not proven is, formally seen, illogical. If you could logically argue to the existence of God, then you wouldn&#039;t need faith.

It&#039;s nice that you &quot;respect people&#039;s right not to believe or not to know.&quot; Actually, you might like to consider the question of &quot;rights&quot; from the other side of the fence. How far should a secular, pluralist society accord &quot;rights&quot; to religious groups which threaten the basic human rights of others, especially children, and whose highest leadership and administrative levels collude and work actively to suppress knowledge of crimes committed and supply succour and support for people who have committed serious crimes? (And I&#039;m not talking about scientologists here.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Audrey, your logic in this discussion is all over the place. An atheist is not someone who believes there is no God, he/she is someone who does not believe that there is a God. This is an important distinction, the result of which is the affirmation that an atheist does not have faith in a belief, rather he/she does not see any valid arguments for believing in a God, be that a triune Judaeo-Hellenistic concept, a flying spaghetti monster (whose believers call themselves Pastafarians), or a giant tea-cup revolving around Saturn.</p>
<p>Having faith in something that&#039;s not proven is, formally seen, illogical. If you could logically argue to the existence of God, then you wouldn&#039;t need faith.</p>
<p>It&#039;s nice that you &#034;respect people&#039;s right not to believe or not to know.&#034; Actually, you might like to consider the question of &#034;rights&#034; from the other side of the fence. How far should a secular, pluralist society accord &#034;rights&#034; to religious groups which threaten the basic human rights of others, especially children, and whose highest leadership and administrative levels collude and work actively to suppress knowledge of crimes committed and supply succour and support for people who have committed serious crimes? (And I&#039;m not talking about scientologists here.)</p>
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		<title>By: Audrey</title>
		<link>http://bocktherobber.com/2009/11/mental-reservation/comment-page-1/#comment-86223</link>
		<dc:creator>Audrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 18:59:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bocktherobber.com/?p=11185#comment-86223</guid>
		<description>Correction - lol How are their beliefs supported and not mine? It takes as much faith to be an atheist. It&#039;s not proven one way or another.  Even logic agrees that you cannot get something out of nothing. It&#039;s beyond our comprehension. It&#039;s beyond being conceived of. So if it&#039;s untestable and can&#039;t be proved then it has to do with faith or belief.  Using reason, not feelings or unfounded beliefs as CJ suggests  doesn&#039;t make a difference to proving or disproving anything.  And of course it&#039;s unfounded.  It&#039;s not testable. But I respect people&#039;s right to not believe or to not know, however don&#039;t tell me to use logic or reason as if i&#039;m somehow illogical having faith in something that&#039;s not proven.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Correction &#8211; lol How are their beliefs supported and not mine? It takes as much faith to be an atheist. It&#039;s not proven one way or another.  Even logic agrees that you cannot get something out of nothing. It&#039;s beyond our comprehension. It&#039;s beyond being conceived of. So if it&#039;s untestable and can&#039;t be proved then it has to do with faith or belief.  Using reason, not feelings or unfounded beliefs as CJ suggests  doesn&#039;t make a difference to proving or disproving anything.  And of course it&#039;s unfounded.  It&#039;s not testable. But I respect people&#039;s right to not believe or to not know, however don&#039;t tell me to use logic or reason as if i&#039;m somehow illogical having faith in something that&#039;s not proven.</p>
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		<title>By: Bock</title>
		<link>http://bocktherobber.com/2009/11/mental-reservation/comment-page-1/#comment-86213</link>
		<dc:creator>Bock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:52:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bocktherobber.com/?p=11185#comment-86213</guid>
		<description>Audrey  -- Correction. You&#039;re the one with the unsupported beliefs, not the other people discussing this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Audrey  &#8212; Correction. You&#039;re the one with the unsupported beliefs, not the other people discussing this.</p>
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